Talk:Surplus Depot Z15
Please stop the move/edit war and explain why you are posting it to Surplus Depot Z-15, a name which does not match with the Star Trek Encyclopedia nor the script "Surplus Depot Zed-One-Five" or 'Zed-15'. --Alan del Beccio 19:21, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC) :See HERE - "Zed-One-Five" means "Z-15", "Z-1-5" or "Z15", but definitely not "Zed-15". --Memory 19:28, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC) Thats beside the point. Alpha and beta mean "A" and "B" but we dont call the Alpha Quadrant the "A Quadrant". The terminology used was "Zed" and is how the article should be written. --Alan del Beccio 21:59, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC) :No, "Alpha" means α - it's just usual to use "Alpha Quadrant". In this case, following your logic, this must be named "Zed-One-Five" not "Zed-15" - but that's nonsense. Nobody writes "Starbase Dschee-6", even though this is the pronunciation. --Memory 23:05, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::The norm on this site is to not spell out numbers, but to spell out unabbreviated versions of terms, spelled out how they were in the script unless the script or onscreen spelling was drastically in error from an established source. ::The natural American pronunciation of "Z-15" would be phonetically "Zee One Five" -- and that's not what Picard (or the script) said -- they said "Zed One Five" -- a completely different term. I don't think it would be intuitive for an user, attempting to research "Zed One Five", to even be aware that "zed" is another name for the letter they know only as "zee" (Memory Alpha uses American English, because Star Trek was written in American English, and since it is my native language, i was completely unaware that "zed" even meant "Z" ("zee")). Since you cite this is a correct use of the term, the redirect is useful because it forms a natural link (as per our various style guides and policies).. however, those rules of this site determine that the article itself must remain at the simplest, most natural, name for the article in question -- which cannot be the more complex use of the term which differs from the episode, as this would be less intuitive for a user writing a link here -- that an American English archivist or search engine won't look for the term Z-15 if they heard or read that Picard said "zed" -- this confused me until i realized that everyone outside of the US says this letter wrong ;) . ::The link to wikipedia might be useful in a footnote desribing the use of the term however -- it would be an informative way to express the origin of the term to our readers. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 00:50, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::We use zed for the letter here in canada and our english is pretty close to american standard. Jaf 03:19, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)Jaf :Picard was played by Stewart - and Stewart is British ;-) If you talk about american standard, you should consider that there is nor real american standard and also the writers of ST mix these things up (or the actors, whatsoever). The "Zed-15" might be a good redirect, but not more. --Memory 14:59, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::::I say keep Zed, and maybe (preferably not) make a redirect for "Z-15". This is what they called it, if they wanted to call it with the letter only, they would have. See: Sector Z-6. But since it was called on screen and on the script as "Zed", there is no indication that Zed means Z in the future, and even if it does, there's reason to believe that is what they wanted to call the depot. Was it at any time in the episode referred to as "Z-15"? - AJHalliwell 16:46, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::I personaly think we should just go with the script, however, I think you misunderstand the user's point. I will try to clarify; when I say 'Zed' i am refering to the letter 'Z' which you call 'Zee' so in that sense the letter Z was spoken in the show. Jaf 16:49, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)Jaf :Sector Z-6 was only shown on a map. And Jaf is right, it was called "Z-15" in the show: "Zed-One-Five"... --Memory 16:58, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::::I don't have a clear opinion at the moment, but whatever we decide here, we should use in similar cases as well: :::::*Outpost Seran-T-One ("T-one" in script, but obviously spoken as "Tee one"; could as well be "T1") :::::*Sector 30 (was called "Sector 3-0", dto. Sector 31) :::::*Starbase G-6 (was probably spoken as "Gee Six"]] :::::*Portal (also "Portal 63", called "Portal six-three" in script) :::::I suggest to at least have the "shortest" form (Z15, T1, 30...) as a redirect in each case. We should also keep in mind that the scripts, especially in these cases (abbreviations) are meant for the actors, not the general public. Even if the "correct" term is supposed to be "Depot Z15", it would have been written as "Zed Fifteen" or "Zed One Five" in the script. -- Cid Highwind 18:34, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::::::Anyone thought of the possibility that Z-15 was meant to sound non-American? I just had a look at the script and the line is spoken by the alien depot commander. Remember that Leonard Nimoy invented a special pronounciation for Spock, because he assumed Spock had learnt English in school, well I did learn the British spelling in school: Zed = Z for me -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 20:03, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::::Can we get this settled before another edit war breaks out? I'm personally not convinced that "Zed" does not stand for "Z" in this case and think that this article should be moved to "Surplus depot Z-15" (also notice capitalization). Generally, I suggest the following convention for such designations, feel free to discuss: :::::#'Numbers' - always written as a number, not spelled out, no additional characters such as hyphens. :::::#'Letters' - as letters if from the latin alphabet, spelled out if not ("Alpha", "Beta", ...). :::::#'Additional characters' - eventually hyphens between letters and numbers, depending on context :::::#'Redirects' - if other spelling variations were used in the script, create those as redirects to the article. ::::: -- Cid Highwind 17:14, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::::::I still don't think z intuitively leads to "Zed" for anyone in the US -- no one i know has ever even heard of "zed" being a letter. We don't abbreviate "alpha" as "a" because we use American English alphabet, not Greek alphabet. We shouldn't associate "zed" with "Z" because we use the American English alphabet, not the European English alphabet -- i see both cases as being the same, as both alphabets are completely foreign to me, therefore if i was searching for a "zed" reference, i would never intuitively start with "z" -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 18:26, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::::::Yes we need something like this, I think it's the best convention for those cases. I see that "Outpost Seran-T-One" was moved to "Outpost Seran-T-1" and then to Outpost Seran T-1, that's a bit mazy. I've missed the "Depot" <-> "depot" thing at the first "move", so we finally move it to "Surplus depot Z-15" and delete the other redirect (the same with "Outpost Seran-T-1"). :::::::For the "Zed" to "Z" problem we keep the redirect, so Americans will find it too ;-) If not, we have to move other articles for consistency reasons, e.g. "Outpost Seran T-1" back to "Outpost Seran-T-One", Starbase G-6 to "G-Six", or create "Science Station Delta Zero-Five" (according to script) - I don't like this idea. We should use the simple forms. And if we won't use the englisch spelling, we have to move it more than ever because "Zed" is the "european" version. --Memory 18:53, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) One question, was the word "Zed" actually spoken in the episode? If it was, then I am for keeping it as "Zed"...because for all we know, it could have a completely different meaning in another alien language, but if the word was spoken as "Zee" then it should go to "Z-15". --Alan del Beccio 18:59, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) :It was spoken as "Zed" in the episode. - AJHalliwell 19:13, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::And it was spoken in Englisch, not alien. --Memory 19:24, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::The word spoken in the episode was Zed. :::Memory, all of the other pages you listed were renamed because the numbers were spelled out -- thats not an issue, theyre fine and wouldn't have to be renamed. none of the letters or numbers in those articles differ from American English at all. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 20:38, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::::The "alien language" argument doesn't hold water - if we start using this argument, where should we stop? Couldn't in fact every word spoken by an alien mean something completely different? And while we're using American English spelling here, this is a reverse situation - the name of the station was spelled out for us, and the fact that a (in the US) uncommon name was used for the letter doesn't really change that fact. To me, it is very obvious that the intended name of that depot was another one of those "Letter+Hyphen+Number" designations that is very common to Star Trek - and the letter used in this case is one character of the latin/roman alphabet: "Z". :::::One other thing possibly worth checking are the Okudagrams used. I think there's a list of ships in the depot visible somewhere in the episode - perhaps one or the other variant was used there, which would make it "official". Otherwise, if we don't come to any clear conclusion, we should have a vote on that issue - but let's wait some more days first. -- Cid Highwind 22:53, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ---- Andreas, you are a genius: see here http://tng.trekpulse.com/episodes/season5/5x07/screencaps/unificationpartone251.jpg and http://tng.trekpulse.com/episodes/season5/5x07/screencaps/unificationpartone252.jpg it is now "Qualor II Depot Z15" -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 15:29, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC) :Cool, thanks for finding that image. I will move the article to Surplus Depot Z15 and create another redirect Surplus depot Zed-15 to that article]]. The new redirect Surplus Depot Zed-15 (capitalization) could be deleted at a later point, if necessary. -- Cid Highwind 10:27, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) : *aaargh* I could have this idea earlier... *bangsheadontable* (I'll nominate "Surplus Depot Z-15" for immediate deletion) --Memory 18:18, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) :: firstly, it's nice to know that a simple article that was needed for a number of links has stirred up such controversy. Let me clarify something that people may or may not know. Actors from different nationalitys will NOT conform to American english standards when they are on screen/stage. The actor playing the Zakdorn clearly said "zed-1-5" this doesnt mean that it's a crazy alien language or some deliberate reason. If the actor was Canadian, Australian or of any English heritage, "Zed" is the natural sounding of the letter "Z", Americans are the only naturally english speaking nation in the world to pronounce the letter "Z" and "Zee". ::Allow me to Cite by example. Stargate Atlantis, David Hewlitt (Dr McKay) is a Canadian actor, he always pronounced the ZPM as "Zed-Pee-Em" while Joe Flannigan, Rachel Luttrell and Torri Higginson (American Actors living in Canada) refer to it as a "Zee-Pee-Em". They're talking about the same device, just a different pronunciation. ::All this fighting over the article is pathetic. As long as it has the information relevent to the episode. What is the point of arguing over it? - Count23 01:40, 15 Aug 2005 (UTC) more bulk from VfD -- Useless redirects ;Seran-T-One outpost and Outpost Seran-T-1: useless redirects --Memory 19:07, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ;Surplus Depot Z-15 and Surplus Depot Zed-15: too, see Talk --Memory 18:32, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) * Memory, I don't consider these articles deletable -- they are useful redirects. There needs to be a vote on deleting useful redirects as per Memory Alpha:Deletion policy -- the Zed-15 links are by no means candidates for this speedy deletion page. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 21:45, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) ** They are because they exist twice (Surplus depot Zed-15 red. Surplus depot Z15 art. ...) --Memory 22:05, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) ***That doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say? ***Memory Alpha:Deletion policy doesn't allow the deletion of a redirect that is considered useful. "Memory Alpha:Policy changes" has recently stated that useful redirects need to be voted on before deletion, as to prove their usefulness, so this is the wrong page for this -- and it is possible for an article to have more than one redirect pointing to it. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:56, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) ****I, too, consider the redirects listed very useless and vote to delete. I personally also agree with Memory's decision to list them on the immediate deletion list - this is not about any single redirect which might be useful or not. At least in the "Z15"-cases, those redirects exist twice with different capitalization. While those with the proper capitalization according to our rules should be kept, the others really don't need to... -- Cid Highwind 23:05, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC) * We have redircets becuase often times people do not know what the article is titled. (For example telekinesis and Psychokinesis) I wouldn't know which example to type in to get to the artcile, therefore these are very necisary. Keep Tobyk777 22:12, 8 Aug 2005 (UTC) **To clarify again, we have both Surplus Depot Zed-15 and Surplus depot Zed-15 at the moment. If one of them is correct according to our naming conventions, the other is not and thus unnecessary. The seach function is case-insensitive... -- Cid Highwind *'Keep "Surplus Depot Zed-15"', as that is what I would type in to go there. - AJHalliwell 00:00, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC) **You've got that there is Surplus depot Zed-15 for this? --Memory 00:10, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC) *** However, AJ's way is the proper use of capitalization for the name of a space station. --Alan del Beccio 03:47, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC) **** Problem: there is no space station ;-) But if you want, you can also delete "Surplus depot Zed-15" an keep the other one, but one of them has to go... --Memory 18:08, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC) ***** Station or not, it's still a proper name. ;) And because of that, the actual page should be all captial: Surplus Depot Z15. Anyway, deleted everything but Surplus Depot Z15 and Surplus Depot Zed-15. --Alan del Beccio 18:39, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC) ****** Well, the capitalized version might or might not be correct - discussion here. -- Cid Highwind 20:20, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)